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Big 12 Expansion Rumors: Florida State And Clemson To Big 12?

As the Big East announces the addition of Memphis to the conference for 2013, the other hot conference expansion rumor of the week is that the Big 12 is targeting Florida State and Clemson. Honus "The Dude" Sneed (hint 1) from the Mountaineers (hint 2) blog EERinsider has the report.

"The Big 12 conference will put its expansion plans on hiatus while Clemson and FSU decide to apply for membership or stay with the ACC.

Talks between the two schools and the Big 12 began late last fall and continued after the completion of the 2011 season. Recently both schools have formed committees to examine the advantages and disadvantages of leaving the ACC for the Big 12 and expect to reach a decision by late summer."

Could this be even remotely possible? I suppose there's a non-zero chance of this happening, with the fact that Clemson has recently formed an Athletic Advisory Committee fueling the expansion rumor fire. But this also doesn't seem very plausible.

This rumor seems to fall in the general trap of thinking like a fan and not like a University president. While the Big 12 may ultimately be able to offer more money to both Clemson and Florida State, that's chump change compared to the overall institutional revenue that comes with the academic association with schools like Duke, North Carolina, Virginia, Wake Forest and BC.

I find it even harder to believe that Clemson -- a founding member of the ACC -- would be willing to trade in existing rivalries with the other original ACC members for increased travel costs and membership in a tougher football conference. Same goes for Florida State (minus the whole "original ACC member" thing), whose road to the BCS would prove much more difficult in a conference with Oklahoma, Texas, Oklahoma State, West Virginia and TCU at the top.

While the ACC's football product pales in comparison to the Big 12's, in terms of academic prestige, there is no comparison between the two conferences. The Big 12 has the lowest ranked academics of the BCS AQ conferences, while the ACC is one of the premier conferences in terms of academic prestige, name brand and market values. Both Clemson and Florida State have benefited greatly from the association.

As far as I can tell, the rumors of the ACC's demise and/or perceived position of weakness are greatly overstated. Take this quote from Barry Tramel of The Oklahoman:

"No. I haven't heard it. And I'm sure the Big 12 has talked to a lot of people. I'm sure the Big 12 called Clemson and said, "Hey, we've got a great idea. How about you, Florida State and" "No thanks." "But wait," the Big 12 responded, "you didn't let us finish. We're talking about you, and" "Not interested." The ACC is solid. Academically and financially and athletically. Let me promise you, while fans get all worked about how Orange Bowls in a row the ACC has lost, the presidents do not."

Personally, I don't think either Clemson or Florida State pose any sort of flight risk for the ACC. But even in the off chance the Tigers and Seminoles did bolt for the Big 12, I don't think the ACC would skip a beat. Sure, the value of the conference's TV contract with ESPN might decrease in value, but so long as the core of Carolina schools, Maryland and the Virginias* stick together, along with the new northern tier of BC, Syracuse and Pittsburgh, the ACC will remain one of the "haves" in the college athletics conference landscape.

* It took Virginia Tech 40+ years to finally marry their high school sweetheart (the ACC and UVa). It took way too much political wrangling and effort to get the Hokies into the conference, and I don't believe Tech is going anywhere -- read: SEC, Big 12 -- any time soon.

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Wow. I believe none of this. FSU & Clemson to Big 12. That would be the day

No way, no how that would happen. FSU had to beg the ACC to include Miami, and Clemson wouldn’t leave the conference back in the late 60’s early 70’s due to academic reasons and wouldn’t leave now due to the same reasons.

The best part of ACC expansion though, is that somehow the conference is able to convince schools to join even though the conference has probably the worst officiating ever. With Ron Cherry (Football) & Karl Hess (Basketball), it is a wonder any right minded university would openly want to play in our league.

Don't give up, don't ever give up ~ Jim Valvano

by AParker on Feb 8, 2012 2:49 PM EST reply actions  

Bad news, friend.

Expect Clemson & FSU to join the Big 12 at the end of this summer. Even with the addition of Syracuse & Pittsburgh, the revenues the ACC generates will be about a $1 million less per team than what the Big 12 members currently make, and with the new TV contract revenues per team are projected to be about $30-35 million per team with the addition of FSU & Clemson.

There’s simply no competing with that kind of revenue. Sorry!

by jlbrpt on May 4, 2012 2:18 AM EDT up reply actions  

Bad news for your friend!

Forget the academics for a moment. Why would FSU and Clemson want to leave for the Big 12, when in a few years, Texas, TTU, OK, OK St. will be in the Pac 16 or the Big 16, depending on where ND goes. ACC or Big 10.

Oh, ya, they’ll have to pick a conference. They will get shut out of the playoff system if they don’t. Believe me, a few back door memos to ND, “ah, hey, not in one of the big 4 conferences, sorry, you don’t get a playoff exception this time”.

So, anyhow, why would they go to a conference that will be broken up again in a couple years?? Doesn’t make sense.

by Daniel LaFrankie on May 7, 2012 10:09 PM EDT up reply actions  

“And in summation,” said Mr. Sneed, “we believe that, Faaaarts!”

by DCash on Feb 8, 2012 3:25 PM EST via mobile reply actions  

I know Louisville Wants in Badly

Clemson and FSU have 80K+ stadiums and have to support football welfare cripples like BC, Duke, WF, Virginia, Maryland and share equal TV revenue for 5 programs that may be slipping after the WF miracle title.

Virginia may be on the comeback with London, but the other 4 are slip sliding away with small and outdated or both stadiums.

This is not too far fetched.

West Virginia was the class of the Big East.

TCU was the darling MWC team and Rose Bowl Champions.

I would not be surprised to see this happen as soon as the dust settles in the latest Big East musical chairs.

I say that if iw as FSU or Clemson and you noticed the latest Sports Illustrated and current recruiting rankings…. I would bust a move to the Big 12 and leave the 5 aforementioned midgets twisting in the Atlantic breezes.

by BCEagle74 on Feb 8, 2012 4:03 PM EST reply actions  

Disagree, 74

It’s the midgets — and Miami, which FSU fought to get into the ACC — that will ultimately keep FSU and Clemson in the ACC.

Both programs know that the ACC is a much easier path to the BCS / 4-team playoff than navigating the UT / OU / OSU / WVU / VT gauntlet plus non-conf games against Florida and South Carolina, respectively.

by Brian Favat on Feb 8, 2012 4:15 PM EST via mobile up reply actions  

TCU, not VT

by Brian Favat on Feb 8, 2012 4:15 PM EST via mobile up reply actions  

Very Astute and TRUE Brian

But the added $$$$$ with the 2 premier ACC Southern Studs??

Who knows?

Check out SI on recruiting and that low end academic football factory……

………………Stanford….

My Urban Meyer post hit home and they were there with USC, UCLA and FSU.

What is gonna be the excuse when your “academic diploma mill” alma mater #2 Northwestern beats BC, and ND, and Baylor, TCU and Stanford go big boy bowling?

Graduation rate card!!!!!!!

Me, if they joined, i would get end zone season tickets and see some great games.

by BCEagle74 on Feb 8, 2012 4:52 PM EST up reply actions  

Academic suicide

Still think this is academic suicide for both Florida State and Clemson. Clemson balked at joining the SEC citing academic concerns, and the academics are even weaker in cowtown (Texas, Kansas, to a lesser extent, and everyone else).

As a school, Clemson has made huge strides academically. Same for Florida State, a state school located in a backwater of the East coast. Really don’t think FSU wants the academic association with Iowa State, Kansas State, West Virginia or Texas Tech.

For me, this is a non-starter of an idea for both.

by Brian Favat on Feb 8, 2012 7:55 PM EST up reply actions  

ISU, Texas, Kansas are all AAU universities and the lowest ranked AAU is like 120 Buffalo if I recall correctly. That isn’t that far below FSU and Clemson and ISU is above FSU.

Baylor and TCU are both ok schools too that rank at like 70 and 90ish I believe.

WVU and TTU are both awful and ISU is leagues better than those, unsure why you lumped them together.

OU, OSU and KSU are pretty close and fall in the middle of those two groups.

by FSU_Ben on Feb 9, 2012 6:17 PM EST up reply actions  

Iowa State is ranked higher than FSU...

…in the US News & World Report’s top colleges & universities and always has been. If FSU joined the Big 12, FSU would outrank Oklahoma State, Kansas State, Texas Tech & West Virginia, in that order.

by jlbrpt on May 4, 2012 2:22 AM EDT up reply actions  

Like I said, I would keep UVA but Maryland is nauseating. I’ve lived in College Park and can’t figure out why they can’t fill such a tiny stadium. It is accessible from the beltway easily and close to all major interstates through the state. Tallahassee is way out of the way in relatively rural North Florida on the Georgia border and has an easier time filling nearly double the capacity. If we could get rid of Maryland, Wake, BC, Pitt, Syracuse and VT and have more programs that rank in the Directors cup standings (meaning actually good at more than just LAX or BB or moderately so-so in football — VT).

Those are the Mississippi states of the ACC and we added two more!

by FSU_Ben on Feb 9, 2012 6:24 PM EST up reply actions  

Where there's Smoke there is Fire

This could very well be for real. I think it has become very clear that the SEC is not taking FSU and Clemson and are looking for an SEC Network with Va Tech and NC State. This does not leave FSU and Clemson with much choice (for BIG money) than to look at a better football conference. Only ND can save the ACC from losing some teams.

by frencha2 on Feb 8, 2012 7:52 PM EST reply actions  

Over/under on how many times Virginia Tech and/or N.C. State publicly shoot down any interest in moving to the SEC?

5?

by Brian Favat on Feb 8, 2012 8:04 PM EST up reply actions  

3 times before the cock crows. Then they will feel great remorse and run to the SEC begging for admission and forgiveness.

by FSU_Ben on Feb 9, 2012 6:13 PM EST up reply actions  

The SEC and ACC enjoy a symbiotic relationship that goes almost as far as the Big Ten and Pac-12 with their new scheduling deal. Both will soon be at the same number of teams = 14.

I don’t believe there is any interest on the part of Slive or the SEC of raiding the ACC.

“If it wasn’t going to be Missouri for that 14th team, the other realistic choice for the SEC was West Virginia. Slive wanted no part of raiding the ACC, although there was some support in the league for Virginia Tech. In Slive’s mind, if teams were expressing interest in joining the SEC, that was one thing. But he didn’t want to be a party to going in and recruiting ACC teams, especially given the Florida-Florida State, Clemson-South Carolina and Georgia-Georgia Tech rivalries.”

http://espn.go.com/college-football/story/_/id/7549791/missouri-tigers-texas-aggies-begin-transition-sec

Where’s there’s smoke, there’s fire? Nah, where there’s a dude with a keyboard and a fan of a team headed to the Big 12, there will always be rumors of the ACC’s eventual demise.

by Brian Favat on Feb 8, 2012 8:11 PM EST up reply actions  

ha ha, YES!!

This sounds like someone with a corn cob pipe and some moonshine up until all hours of the night thinking this up!!!

Only thing I can’t figure out, they don’t have computers in West Virginia yet???

by Daniel LaFrankie on May 7, 2012 10:13 PM EDT up reply actions  

This is great news!

Which 2 schools in the ACC are not like the others? Luv to see these arrogant hype- masters depart!

Well, glad you ask: KLemPsuM and FsU

What about NCSU.

Yeah, that too. Stinky academics

by eagleosprey on Feb 8, 2012 8:36 PM EST reply actions  

Maybe NC State will go to the SEC… That is there in that same linked article. I wouldn’t mind, as an FSU fan, sticking with UVA, Clemson, UNC and perhaps, Duke and Miami but the rest of those schools can suck and egg and generally do where all athletics are concerned. Georgia Tech is a good rival for FSU too. The north of the conference including Pitt and Syracuse aren’t exciting at all to play.

by FSU_Ben on Feb 9, 2012 6:11 PM EST up reply actions  

How much academic cooperation exists within the ACC? Is there any sort of program similar to the Big Ten’s Committee on Institutional Cooperation?

How much of a boost does FSU experience being smart-by-association if, in traditional years, non-sports-types don’t know Duke plays ACC football or FSU plays ACC basketball? Sports-types (see eagleosprey’s effusive love for Clemson) don’t respect the “dumb” schools for playing with the “smart” schools.

Unless there is academic exchange and cooperation, I don’t believe simply being in a league with a few glamour schools means much to professors and researchers. The ACC isn’t the Ivy League. Will playing UVA and Duke on Saturdays lead to more grant money and donations? Fans only care about winning— and, on that point, I agree that they would be better served in the ACC.

by seaboard on Feb 8, 2012 9:43 PM EST reply actions  

The CIC ACC equivalent is International Academic Collaborative (IAC).

I don’t think there’s any question Clemson has benefited from the association over the years. A state agricultural school now ranked one of the top 60 schools in the country iirc. / USN&WR’d

by Brian Favat on Feb 8, 2012 10:06 PM EST via mobile up reply actions  

Texas, Florida, Texas A&M, Kansas, ISU, Nebraska, Indiana, So on so forth. Not in the ACC. Doing just fine in the academic rankings with agricultural programs…. All are state schools. All have had various affiliations that average out lower ranking than the ACC.

by FSU_Ben on Feb 9, 2012 6:04 PM EST up reply actions  

The CIC

Is a giant book sharing library program. It isn’t nearly as valuable as people think. It doesn’t bring money into the school or distribute money to member institutions. Basically it shares knowledge resources and any conference can do that as well as the B1G if they put the effort in. Also any conference could conduct joint research programs and the Big-12 has plenty of big research giants and far less tiny private schools.

by FSU_Ben on Feb 9, 2012 6:07 PM EST up reply actions  

"the overall institutional revenue that comes with the academic association"

I like some details on that… in my mind the number is close to zero – I don’t see institutional revenue (non sports related) coming to FSU because of our athletic assocation…does anybody give a grant to NC State cause they’re in the ACC? I doubt it – nobody thinks their school is any good and they have been in the ACC for a long time.

As an FSU fan I have no interest in seeing us join the Big 12. The ACC is fine and the SEC is the only posible landing place if the money was to good to refuse…

and I would appreciate it if no one mentioned last night’s BB game :)

by 93noleman on Feb 9, 2012 2:44 PM EST reply actions  

I think....

WAY TOO MUCH value has been placed on the academic association with the ACC. It isn’t attracting higher quality students and it isn’t making any great moves in FSU’s endowment or research funding. Both have grown at rates below UF, USF and UCF’s lately. That is three conferences (at this point) that are significantly less prestigious academically speaking.

Texas, Baylor, TCU, ISU and Kansas are all fine schools too… They aren’t Duke, UVA or UNC but they would easily rival the rest of the league and are above the very bottom (FSU, NC State).

FSU and Clemson would both increase fan interest and not have deadbeat conference mates that didn’t buy tickets 90% of the games. When I say increase fan interest I mean instead of every single game being “God, I hope we don’t lose to this ACC slouch of a football team” changing to “I can’t wait for the FSU-Texas, FSU-Oklahoma” and quite frankly I would rather “FSU-OSU and FSU-TTU” than any ACC team outside Clemson and Miami.

That said the latest TV deal is not just less than expected. It’s the same deal. We are giving ESPN more for the same per game payout. We also have to compete with these SEC schools to recruit and need more athletic dollars any way we can get them. And making a couple league networks (like PAC-12) would enhance revenue beyond anything this locked in ACC garbage deal will net.

by FSU_Ben on Feb 9, 2012 6:00 PM EST reply actions  

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