The Big East Conference, Do-Over Edition
by Brian Favat on Feb 8, 2012 8:00 AM EST
in Conference Expansion
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PrintAccording to CBS Sports' Brett McMurphy, the Memphis Tigers are set to become an all-sports member of the Big East in 2013.
"Memphis has accepted an offer to join the Big East Conference in all sports in 2013, college football industry sources told CBSSports.com.
The Tigers will join the Big East with three other Conference USA members - Houston, SMU and UCF - for the 2013-14 school year. The Big East also will add Boise State and San Diego State as football-only members in 2013 and Navy in 2015."
This swells the number of former Conference USA members to join the ranks of the Big East to nine, as the Tigers are set to join Louisville, Cincinnati, South Florida, DePaul, Marquette, Houston, SMU and UCF. Basically, if you are still a Conference USA member and have not gotten a Big East invite at this point, you are doing something wrong.
For basketball, this is a solid move. For football ... meh.
When Memphis joins the Big East in 2013, the Tigers will become the 28th different school to have called the Big East home at one point in the conference's history (inclusive of Loyola Maryland, who is an associate member for women's lacrosse.
This got me thinking: if you could construct the optimal Big East Conference from scratch, using any of the 28 members of the conference that have once called the Big East home, who ya got? (The complete list of programs can be found here.)
The first thing you need to do is determine what the conference's priorities are. If you are going to be a basketball-first conference, then ditch the geographically absurd Boise State, and you can probably also live without Rutgers, DePaul (obviously), Houston, SMU and South Florida.
Or maybe you want to be a football-first conference. In that case, the basketball-only schools quickly get the boot -- Georgetown, Providence, St. John's, Seton Hall and Villanova -- and you are left to choose from the original Big East football members, former C-USA programs like Louisville, Cincinnati and USF, the Mountain West and Navy.
For me, if we are doing this thing over, I only want all-sports programs who provide some value in football and basketball but are solid football programs. Having an all-sports conference where programs share revenue equally is much more tenable than the existing Big East basketball-football hybrid.
Here is my ultimate Big East Conference. Leave your own thoughts in the comments section.
Big East Gavitt Division
Boston College Eagles
Navy Midshipmen
Notre Dame Fighting Irish
Syracuse Orange
Pittsburgh Panthers
West Virginia Mountaineers
Big East Tranghese Division
Cincinnati Bearcats
Miami Hurricanes
Louisville Cardinals
Rutgers Scarlet Knights
South Florida Bulls
Virginia Tech Hokies
The Big East Gavitt Division consists of BC, Navy, Notre Dame, Syracuse, Pitt and West Virginia, while the Tranghese Division includes Cincinnati, Miami, Louisville, Rutgers, South Florida and Virginia Tech.
Football. The conference would be anchored by Notre Dame, Miami, Virginia Tech and West Virginia. The conference probably wouldn't be as strong as the SEC, Big Ten and Big 12, but could probably rival the ACC and the Pac-12. I passed on Boise State and San Diego State (geographically absurd), as well as the new batch of Conference USA teams like Houston, SMU and UCF, though Houston and UCF have sleeping giant potential.
I did, however, include Navy as the Middies have a long shared history with Notre Dame (85 games), Pittsburgh (38), BC (29) and Syracuse (27). I fully understand that Navy would be dead weight in hoops.
Basketball. The powers in hoops would include Syracuse, Pittsburgh, Notre Dame and West Virginia in the Gavitt Division and Cincinnati and Louisville in the Tranghese Division. Top to bottom this conference probably isn't as strong as the current Big East (including Marquette, Georgetown and Villanova, among others), but would likely rank as one of the top conferences year in and year out.
Scheduling. In football, the conference would play a nine-game conference schedule with five games within your division and four from the other division on a rotational basis. Since most of the major rivalries you want to preserve -- BC-Syracuse, Syracuse-Pitt, BC-Notre Dame, Pitt-West Virginia -- remain within the division, the permanent cross-over rival setup can be abandoned for one that cycles through teams from the other with greater frequency.
This is clearly a pipe dream as Notre Dame would never agree to this schedule format, but the setup does give the Irish annual games with Pittsburgh, BC and Navy, as well as Syracuse (for exposure in NYC).
In basketball, no divisions. Eighteen game schedule. One permanent scheduling partner that guarantees a home-and-home annually. Play everyone else at least once, three rotating home partners and three rotating road partners.
Pairings are: BC-Syracuse, Notre Dame-Navy (lucky Irish), Pitt-West Virginia, Cincinnati-Louisville, Miami-South Florida and Virginia Tech-Rutgers (lucky Hokies)
Championships. Football championship at MetLife Stadium in the Meadowlands, basketball at MSG. Basketball tournament format mirrors today's ACC Basketball Tournament with the top 4 teams receiving first-round byes.
Now if only we had done this from the start ...
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At the Big East, we feel that everyone should be able to play in our conference
Except ECU….
SAD FACE
Don't give up, don't ever give up ~ Jim Valvano
Your Forgot Holy Cross
We need to re-establish those Colonial Conference ties now that we recruit like them..
Oh…. I forgot…..We are in the ACC now….
Oops.
FYI – UMASS did some nice recruiting for a jumper!
psssst .. they know almost nothing about Holy Cross (so it was not forgetting, it was never knowing)
we went over last year ad nauseum, but the ‘youts’ who run this board, and many of the young commenters, are completely unfamiliar with HC and its prior tight sports relationship with BC. What a shame
Or the fact that Holy Cross was never a member of the Big East, and not eligible for the above exercise.
Editor, BC Interruption
by Brian Favat on Feb 8, 2012 12:40 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
Holy Cross was never a member of the Big East past, present or future, yes?
Yes.
Editor, BC Interruption
BC, Maryland and TCU … / Big East Dream Scenario
Editor, BC Interruption
by Brian Favat on Feb 8, 2012 3:07 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Holy Cross sports?
Other than letting in Rudy, what has Holy Cross ever done in sports?
That’s the other Holy Cross in Indiana ….
But Holy Cross has won a national championship in basketball in the forties and ruined Boston College’s NC chances in 1942 55 – 12 in one of the biggest upsets of all time. Read up on it. Recently, nothing.
Big East doesn't want stage 4 herpes
Or maybe it was the other way around. Oh wells
Don't give up, don't ever give up ~ Jim Valvano
ECU wants Big East. Big East does not want an OK C-USA football program with awful hoops in a small media market.
Read today’s Big East press release. They are fixated on boasting that they have the largest TV footprint of any college athletics conference. Never mind the fact that most of these programs tread (very) lightly in their own markets.
Editor, BC Interruption
by Brian Favat on Feb 8, 2012 12:42 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
“The addition of Memphis, along with the five schools announced in December and Navy, will boost the BIG EAST’s television reach to more than 31 million homes, which is nearly 28 percent of all U.S. television households. Thirteen conference members will be located among the top 30 television markets and 17 will be in the top 50.
The BIG EAST already had the largest media footprint in college athletics and the addition of Memphis makes that footprint even larger."
Never change, Marinatto.
Editor, BC Interruption
So no UConn eh?
Color me surprised.
Also, I guess you are assuming Notre Dame participates in football.
Get well soon Coach!
2011 National Champs in Men's Basketball
FIRE DeLEONE
Eat a bagel (like a mumu)
#TeamKuechly
1967: Embrace it
If you are starting from scratch, there are 12 football programs stronger than one barely a decade removed from its transition from I-AA. But to humor me, what does your ultimate Big East Conference look like?
Yes, Notre Dame football included. One of the many missteps the Big East made was taking Notre Dame in as a member in all sports except football. Big East now gets little to nothing in return for the Irish dumping its Olympic sports in the Big East.
Editor, BC Interruption
I mean, who are da 12 best Big East programs of all time?
/counting on fingers
UConn… UConn… UConn… UConn… UConn… UConn, UConn, UConn, UConn, UConn
/switches to toes
UConn, and UConn
Get well soon Coach!
2011 National Champs in Men's Basketball
FIRE DeLEONE
Eat a bagel (like a mumu)
#TeamKuechly
1967: Embrace it
Based upon the reason for your list
Of taking the 12 best football programs it would seem.
I would say UConn should slot in over Rutgers, South Florida, and Cincinnati. I could see dropping any of those three, but if I was choosing, it would be Rutgers. Only because I don’t like that program (not as much as you dislike UConn, but close). Putting that dislike aside, probably Cincy.
one barely a decade removed from its transition from I-AA.
Arre you talking about UConn or South Florida here? Or maybe it’s Rutgers since they might as well have been I-AA before Schiano with how terrible their program was. Or perhaps Cincinnati for similar reasons since they didn’t do much of anything from 1951-1997
Get well soon Coach!
2011 National Champs in Men's Basketball
FIRE DeLEONE
Eat a bagel (like a mumu)
#TeamKuechly
1967: Embrace it
Rutgers has been playing big boy football for over 100 years. UConn 12.
Shall we also include Villanova?
Editor, BC Interruption
I fail to see how that means anything
They went to one bowl game prior to 2005. Also, I’m not sure they were playing “big boy” football, since they were independent most of the time prior to 1991 when they joined the Big East. So I guess they’ve been playing it for 20 years? But does it really matter when they were a horrible team (40-80-1) between 1990 and 2001?
They may have been playing for a while but they (a) have not any meaningful success, which has led to (b) don’t have much of a following, even now after Schiano’s OK last few years.
Regardless, for sake of not continuing the Rutgers vs. UConn, I say drop Cincy from your list. Or even South Florida since they have only been playing “big boy” football since 2005. And hey look at that, UConn’s been playing for one year longer.
Humor me, why do you like Cincy and USF over UConn?
Get well soon Coach!
2011 National Champs in Men's Basketball
FIRE DeLEONE
Eat a bagel (like a mumu)
#TeamKuechly
1967: Embrace it
Because Cincinnati has been playing I-A football for much longer and pairs well with Pitt, West Virginia and Louisville regionally.
And because USF is in Florida — not East Hartford — and pairs well with Miami.
Editor, BC Interruption
by Brian Favat on Feb 8, 2012 4:27 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
You and I place different values on team's history
Just because a school “played” in the “big boy” football shouldn’t mean they are automatically a better program to have. I think the program should have at least had some sort of success at that level. Because if these programs just get bonus points for guilt by association, then Depaul needs to be ranked higher. Since they are playing in the big boy basketball league.
Get well soon Coach!
2011 National Champs in Men's Basketball
FIRE DeLEONE
Eat a bagel (like a mumu)
#TeamKuechly
1967: Embrace it
There is marginal value in UConn football.
Forgive me for undervaluing a program that plays in a college football wasteland (New England), plays in a small, off-campus stadium that they don’t own (40k, 20+ miles from Storrs) and has participated in a water-down football conference for less than a decade (Big East).
Editor, BC Interruption
This comes up a lot in our conversations
But I have yet to see you justify how just playing 100 years of big boy football, when it is as shitty a history as Rutgers and Cincy have had, has any relevance to the value of the program today.
As you know, winning = butts in seats and fans. If Rutgers had barely any success during the times that the majority of people with spending power on football have been alive to become fans, how could they have generated any fan base with them sucking. People don’t watch or follow losing teams in large numbers.
Yea they played higher level football than UConn, but there is a certain threshold of success a program has to hit in order for it to even matter that they were playing in that league. Otherwise, they are just as valuable as the teams playing below them.
Rutgers may have that bigger stadium but they are having to give away tickets to even get people to come. They are just not a great program.
I’m not sitting here trying to say UConn is on the level of Alabama or hell even BC in terms of football value. I’m just contending that you are way overvaluing Rutgers/USF/Cincy compared to UConn, most likely because of personal bias towards UConn (shocker, I know).
Get well soon Coach!
2011 National Champs in Men's Basketball
FIRE DeLEONE
Eat a bagel (like a mumu)
#TeamKuechly
1967: Embrace it
When you share none of those built-in advantages — facilities, region, academics — you better have some history on the gridiron, otherwise you are just UMass or Villanova football fast-forwarded 10 years.
South Florida has value over UConn because of location.
Rutgers has value over UConn due to history.
And Cincinnati fits better geographically in my division above (better than UConn). And if making a Fiesta Bowl appearance is your justification for including UConn over Cincy, well Cincinnati did that twice as many times.
You are also undervaluing Rutgers based on personal bias (shocker, I know).
Editor, BC Interruption
What has that history done for Rutgers? Absolutely nothing. UConn has at least managed to get two shared Big East titles and Rutgers had a 13 year head start in the Big East. The fact that the Big East is watered-down as you say and Rutgers couldn’t even manage to accomplish something as easy as a tie?
UConn Bowl games: 5
Rutgers Bowl games: 7
This isn’t the Cubs we are talking about here where they have fan base despite not doing anything for 100 years. Rutgers was a footnote in college football and a doormat for decades.
Get well soon Coach!
2011 National Champs in Men's Basketball
FIRE DeLEONE
Eat a bagel (like a mumu)
#TeamKuechly
1967: Embrace it
College football program valuations
Here’s one objective measure of value
4. Notre Dame – $581.2
23. Virginia Tech – $212.9
36. West Virginia – $132.7
41. Miami – $121.7
43. Louisville – $120.0
53. South Florida – $88.9
57. Connecticut – $77.1
58. Boston College – $75.4
61. Rutgers – $66.9
64. Pittsburgh – $61.9
66. Syracuse – $53.8
70. Cincinnati – $47.5
Navy excluded
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052970203462304577138611484143588.html
If I’m going to include BC (which, obviously, I am), UConn becomes redundant. Why shoehorn them into the other division with no natural rivalries and matchups with a bunch of former C-USA teams?
Unless you were arguing for UConn over Navy in BC’s division, which you might have a case for given disparity in basketball, if not for the long-standing rivalry between Notre Dame-Navy and Navy’s history against other programs like BC and Pitt.
I’d argue that Notre Dame pairs better with every other team in that division. Hell, didn’t the Irish balk at playing any games at the Rent? Whatever happened to that six game series UConn had with Notre Dame?
Editor, BC Interruption
How is UConn redundant and not Rutgers then? Those two schools aren’t exactly very far from each other. They don’t fit any better into the Tranghese division than UConn does.
Not arguing Navy for the exact reasons you mentioned. I’ve only brought up three teams this whole time.
Not sure why you brought up the Irish… outside of sneaking in that dig…
Get well soon Coach!
2011 National Champs in Men's Basketball
FIRE DeLEONE
Eat a bagel (like a mumu)
#TeamKuechly
1967: Embrace it
Thanks for helping me show that Rutgers is lower than UConn.
Get well soon Coach!
2011 National Champs in Men's Basketball
FIRE DeLEONE
Eat a bagel (like a mumu)
#TeamKuechly
1967: Embrace it
What makes Cincy pair up well with Pitt and WVU? Just because they are kind of close?
I will give you Lousville because there is a historical rivalry there (Keg O’ Nails I believe), but I don’t think Pitt and WVU have played Cincy very much.
This one source makes it seem like Pitt and Cincy have played each other a whopping 11 times including this year and last (source is from before last year’s game). What was that thing you always say about the UConn-BC football “rivalry” not really existing just because the schools are close in distance?
WVU and Cincy have played each other 20 times with WVU winning 16 of those games. Quite the rivalry those teams have.
Get well soon Coach!
2011 National Champs in Men's Basketball
FIRE DeLEONE
Eat a bagel (like a mumu)
#TeamKuechly
1967: Embrace it
WVU vs Cincy series
Get well soon Coach!
2011 National Champs in Men's Basketball
FIRE DeLEONE
Eat a bagel (like a mumu)
#TeamKuechly
1967: Embrace it
At worst
All four of those teams are equal from a football only standpoint. I would think that UConn’s future potential and current success in basketball far outweighing any of those other three programs would be enough to give UConn the nod.
Get well soon Coach!
2011 National Champs in Men's Basketball
FIRE DeLEONE
Eat a bagel (like a mumu)
#TeamKuechly
1967: Embrace it
You and I have very different outlooks on UConn basketball post-Calhoun, apparently.
Editor, BC Interruption
by Brian Favat on Feb 8, 2012 4:28 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
I know we do
That was my first trip over here (Pitt’s bball future vs. UConn). Memories.
By the way, Pitt sure does look good this year with that stellar coach, eh?
Get well soon Coach!
2011 National Champs in Men's Basketball
FIRE DeLEONE
Eat a bagel (like a mumu)
#TeamKuechly
1967: Embrace it
Its true we do
But are they really going to regress to the level of Rutgers or USF? Maybe below Cincy, but Rutgers/USF? That’s silly.
Get well soon Coach!
2011 National Champs in Men's Basketball
FIRE DeLEONE
Eat a bagel (like a mumu)
#TeamKuechly
1967: Embrace it
No, but I suspect that facilities, Big East instability and the fallout from the post-Calhoun era, a coach that has run afoul with the NCAA more than any current coach by my estimation, can’t be ignored.
Million dollar practice facilities are great and all, but as a barn, Gampel is a total hole that should be razed and isn’t even as nice as Conte Forum. The XL Center should be razed too.
The revolving door that is the Big East will take a toll on the recruiting trail.
And at the clip Calhoun is currently on re: NCAA infractions, could get ugly when he finally decides to hang them up.
Editor, BC Interruption
Meh
We are going to have to wait and see on this one. Everything you say could happen, but it is a lot of speculation.
Our views of the future of UConn basketball are strongly influenced by personal bias (obviously). So we are both going to cherry pick hypotheticals that could lead to our desired results. This topic really isn’t worth us going back and forth about.
How about this, we’ll meet back here in 5 years and see who is right? If I am right, then I get to run your blog for a day. If you win… I dunno, I don’t have a blog.
Get well soon Coach!
2011 National Champs in Men's Basketball
FIRE DeLEONE
Eat a bagel (like a mumu)
#TeamKuechly
1967: Embrace it
Again, you haven’t humored me yet. What does your Big East look like using the above guidelines?
Mine was football-first, with an emphasis on teams that either have a richer football history / strong historical rivalries (Navy) or paired well geographically with other schools. No hoops hybrid.
Editor, BC Interruption
by Brian Favat on Feb 8, 2012 4:30 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
Oh, for your humor
I should have clarified I agree with your approach of going more football oriented. Dolla’ dolla’ bills y’all.
So mine would be yours, but replacing Rutgers with UConn.
Get well soon Coach!
2011 National Champs in Men's Basketball
FIRE DeLEONE
Eat a bagel (like a mumu)
#TeamKuechly
1967: Embrace it
I know!
When making up fictional conferences, I can’t believe anyone would do such a thing!
Get well soon Coach!
2011 National Champs in Men's Basketball
FIRE DeLEONE
Eat a bagel (like a mumu)
#TeamKuechly
1967: Embrace it
Right, gotta cash in on all those historical rivalries in the Tranghese division!
9 — UConn vs. USF
8 — UConn vs. Cincinnati
8 — UConn vs. Louisville
2 — UConn vs. Virginia Tech
1 — UConn vs. Miami
Thrown in trash can: 31 — UConn vs. Rutgers
Editor, BC Interruption
Wouldn't UConn vs. Rutgers still be in the trash can if Rutgers was there?
Or are you saying I should have replaced Cincy or USF since Rutgers vs. UConn has history?
Get well soon Coach!
2011 National Champs in Men's Basketball
FIRE DeLEONE
Eat a bagel (like a mumu)
#TeamKuechly
1967: Embrace it
“history”
Get well soon Coach!
2011 National Champs in Men's Basketball
FIRE DeLEONE
Eat a bagel (like a mumu)
#TeamKuechly
1967: Embrace it
To recap, you protest my inclusion of Cincinnati, Louisville, South Florida and Rutgers … only to include them in your optimal 12-team Big East, yes?
Editor, BC Interruption
Never wrote anything about Louisville...
And I didn’t protest their (being CIncy, USF, Rutgers) inclusion in yours. I said I thought UConn was a better option over the three of them. UConn is one team, so adding it to your conference would knock a single team out. I went with dropping Rutgers.
Not sure how this
So mine would be yours, but replacing Rutgers with UConn.could be any clearer…
Get well soon Coach!
2011 National Champs in Men's Basketball
FIRE DeLEONE
Eat a bagel (like a mumu)
#TeamKuechly
1967: Embrace it
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