Conference Realignment: Texas, Texas Tech To The ACC? Moving To Four Pods?
by Brian Favat on Sep 13, 2011 1:35 PM EDT
in Conference Expansion
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The weird just keeps on getting weirder.
According to Kirk Bohls and Alan Trubow of the Austin American-Statesman, if the Big 12 does in fact implode, Texas would decide between pushing for membership in the Pac-12 or Atlantic Coast Conference:
"They don't want to be independent, and the one thing they do know is their conference options are about to be reduced by one. If the Big 12 implodes, Texas would have to decide between pushing for membership in the Pac-12 or Atlantic Coast Conference or turning independent, an option Dodds has always strongly opposed."
The AA-S report states that DeLoss Dodds strongly opposes going independent, which would leave the Longhorns with two options -- heading west to the Pac-12 or heading east to the ACC. Dodds will employ a three-part criteria:
-- The first is the well-being of its student-athletes. The Pac-12 is two time zones away from Austin and could make life difficult for student-athletes traveling back and forth from Austin to Pullman, Washington. The ACC may be seen as a more favorable option since all member schools are just one time zone away. Advantage: ACC.
-- Texas' second metric is economics. Texas will protect its stake in the Longhorn Network at all costs, and isn't really interested in sharing. This is another sticking point with moving to the Pac-12, as Larry Scott has made it clear Texas cannot keep its LHN with a move to the Pac-12. Advantage: ACC.
-- Third is to maintain rivalries, traditions to keep up fan interest. This one seems to be a sticking point with any move to the ACC. If Oklahoma moves to the Pac-12, this may sweeten the deal for the Longhorns move west. Texas would get the opportunity to start up new rivalries with Florida State, Clemson and Virginia Tech, among others, on the gridiron, but Oklahoma isn't moving to the ACC and there's only a possible Baylor lawsuit standing in the way of Texas A&M officially joining the SEC. Advantage: Pac-12.
Two out of three criteria favor the ACC, eh? Maybe this isn't such a far-fetched idea after all.
The strangest part of the report isn't the fact that Texas is seriously considering a move to the ACC. The strangest part is the unique configuration the ACC would adopt if they add the Longhorns to the fold.
"The ACC is willing to talk about a unique conference format that has intrigued Texas. Instead of divisions, the conference could be divided into four pods, with each pod containing four teams, to aid scheduling."
Now while talks between the ACC and Texas haven't progressed to a mature phase, it's always fun to speculate on what a four pod ACC might look like. According to the report, if Texas does move to the ACC, the Horns would probably bring along at least one partner with them, likely Texas Tech. The question then becomes which other two programs the ACC would look to bolt on to get to 16.
Let's say, for sake of argument, that the ACC goes after two of West Virginia, Pittsburgh, Syracuse and UConn -- the four Big East programs most commonly discussed as possible ACC expansion candidates -- to get to 16. For the below, I'll go with West Virginia and Syracuse, but you can mix and match as you see fit. What would a four pod ACC look like then?
Pod 1: Boston College, Syracuse, North Carolina, Duke
Pod 2: West Virginia, Maryland, Virginia, Virginia Tech
Pod 3: Florida State, Miami, N.C. State, Wake Forest
Pod 4: Clemson, Georgia Tech, Texas, Texas Tech
Logic would seemingly dictate that you keep the four North Carolina schools in the same pod, but then there really doesn't seem to be any logical geographic groupings for two of the other pods. Splitting North Carolina and Duke from N.C. State and Wake Forest seems to balance out the pods both competitively and geographically. I suppose you could keep the four Carolina schools together and put BC and Syracuse in the same division as Florida State and Miami and have one long-haul pod. That might work, too.
Fun to speculate, but really all bets are off on conference realignment until Texas and Oklahoma make their intentions known. The mere fact that we are somewhat seriously discussing a Texas move to the ACC is pretty mind-boggling in and of itself.
However, the fact that Texas and ACC officials are at least discussing the possibility, combined with the fact that Mike Slive will reportedly slow play any plans of adding a 14th member lead me to believe that the ACC is in a much stronger position with respect to conference realignment than most would have you believe.
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Not WVU, but USF!
Pod 1: North Carolina, Duke, N.C. State, Wake Forest (mini original ACC)
Pod 2: Boston College, Syracuse, Miami , Virginia Tech (mini BE)
Pod 3: Florida State, Maryland, USF, Virginia (mini corn dogs)
Pod 4: Clemson, Georgia Tech, Texas, Texas Tech (mini SEC/SWC)
Splitting Virginia and Virginia Tech is a nonstarter, as is USF making any short list of ACC expansion candidates (as you and I have discussed at length).
Editor, BC Interruption
by Brian Favat on Sep 13, 2011 2:01 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
admit you are wrong on USF, finally!
you are so clueless to think WVU is ok for ACC, but USF is not. Now fess up!
if you do publicly confess error, I will agree that VT and UVa stay as a pair!
Deal??
I don't know ...
Plenty of comments in this thread and the only support and/or mention of USF is coming from you. Clearly we are all clueless.
Editor, BC Interruption
yuk yuk
guy way down the thread was suggesting UCF USF for inclusion in the ACC. He must be another uninformed guy who does not run a blog too.
USF to the ACC rumors are the stuff of Bleacher Report ...
And lo and behold, first Google natural search result for “acc expansion usf”:
Yet, if you read the article, it doesn’t even advocate the ACC taking a flyer on South Florida. Instead, it suggests that USF join I-4 rival UCF back in Conference USA.
Editor, BC Interruption
USF/UCF membership would be
exactly the type of move that further erodes the feeling for the ACC’s core programs that they’re still in the same conference. While the benefits for football and markets are plain to see, Texas A&M and Nebraska have proven over the last year that emotion does come into play. This type of move would actually make the conference less stable despite the appearance otherwise.
Less memorable than Sam Okey's Hawkeye career.
by Kyle McCann't on Sep 14, 2011 4:50 PM EDT up reply actions
Rutgers is more likely than either
ACC academic psuedo-snobbery is alive and well; I’d bet a lot that neither WVU nor USF (nor Texas Tech nor Louisville, for that matter) are joining the ACC unless it’s to stave off the death of the conference.
If Texas gets to keep the LHN
then in 5-10 years (if it takes that long) you will see an exact replay of what went down in the Big XII; the old-guard schools will have had enough and start looking for an out. Duke, UNC, Maryland & UVA won’t be thrilled to have a school like Texas come in and push them around.
Less memorable than Sam Okey's Hawkeye career.
There's no way Texas could push around two football programs with 11 national championships between them...
Less memorable than Sam Okey's Hawkeye career.
by Kyle McCann't on Sep 13, 2011 2:23 PM EDT up reply actions
Or hoops schools like Carolina and Duke.
Though ACC hoops would be pretty ridiculous if the conference added Texas, Texas Tech and two Big East schools.
Editor, BC Interruption
Ah, but they could.
Carolina/Duke is such a sacred event in ACC territory that it’s hard to fathom their being driven apart or cowed in any way by a new arrival. But consider the following:
1. Football, even in the basketball-first ACC, is clearly driving expansion discussions.
2. Texas managed to break up a football rivalry every bit as fierce and important as Duke/UNC by ruining the Oklahoma/Nebraska series. In fact, for continued importance over the decades, that particular rivalry is even more significant than the Tobacco Road tilt.
Less memorable than Sam Okey's Hawkeye career.
by Kyle McCann't on Sep 13, 2011 2:37 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
ATLANTIC COAST in Texas?
The conference is the ACC, as in Atlantic Coast Conference. Does Texas even fit the conference name? Is this like tthe Big East with non "east’ members such as TCU and L’Ville
Well actually Texas fits the ACC. The Gulf of Mexico is part of the Atlantic Ocean and Texas is therefore an Atlantic Coast State!!
BC v Texas. whoa!!!
I generally agree
As hard as it is to envision UT joining the ACC, UT Austin is only about 3 hours and change from the coast, which actually means it is technically closer to the Atlantic than many of the existing ACC schools. Also, FWIW, UT actually has a campus in Galveston. It is mostly a medical school, I think.
by Lone-Star-Hokie on Sep 16, 2011 7:05 PM EDT up reply actions
I’m not discounting the fact that we could make the geography work, but …
“UT Austin is only about 3 hours and change from the coast, which actually means it is technically closer to the Atlantic than many of the existing ACC schools.”
What existing ACC school is a 3+ hour flight from the Atlantic Ocean? Haha.
Editor, BC Interruption
Expect four Texas members in one pod
Texas, its buddies Texas Tech and Baylor, and a fourth member. Houston’s a possibility; so is Southern Methodist. But Texas would probably think Rice would be easiest to handle, especially since the ACC is comfortable with private schools in its membership.
The other three pods would probably be north (BC, Maryland, UVa and VT); central (the four NC schools) and south (Clemson, FSU, GT and Miami).
I am trying to ponder Boston College teams making road trips to Lubbock and Waco. Or having not one, not two, but three “Techs” in a conference.
It would certainly boost the brand of ACC football, which now is virtually nonexistent.
I thought that happen with the addition of Miami, Va-Tech and BC?
Texas yes, Baylor, Texas Tech and Houston not so much.
by ev on Sep 13, 2011 2:25 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Baylor has very strong academics and would be a cultural fit with many of the other ACC school. Plus they’ve been having a football resurgence under Art Briles.
Houston on the other hand doesn’t bring much in the academic department. They would be a bottom dweller in athletics and academics. I don’t see that happening.
Baylor is a cultural fit, please tell me you didn't mean that.
Exactly what resurgence would you be talking about? The 7-6 season last year, or the two 4-8 ones right before that? One good QB, who is leaving, does not a resurgence make. Please take Baylor, it’s solves so many problems.
by ev on Sep 13, 2011 4:43 PM EDT up reply actions
No Texas schools not currently in BCS conferences would be a part of this.
Baylor, for all their “resurgence” (two years does not a comeback make), is involved in this discussion purely through its state-level political sway. Their ability to hold up both Texas A&M and the Oklahoma schools moves at this point is completely based in their ability to show that they would incur significant financial damages by not having a BCS home. SMU, Houston, Rice, etc. would not be able to do so. I’d look for Missouri, a school that would also allow a unified move, to fill in that last slot.
Less memorable than Sam Okey's Hawkeye career.
by Kyle McCann't on Sep 13, 2011 2:42 PM EDT up reply actions
Right, the BCS schools will fill superconferences well before any of these conferences take a flyer on a school from Conference USA or the Mountain West. The BCS will look out for the BCS before expanding the pie.
That said, I think Missouri is more likely headed to the SEC as #14 or the Big East along with the Kansas schools.
Editor, BC Interruption
I also agree with you on the likely destination for schools like Mizzou and the Kansas duo.
The ACC is much more likely to take a fourth from the Big East, but I’m just playing devil’s advocate for a “unified” Western pod. One option on the table that fulfills the Western location, availability and “splash” factor…BYU. The were candidate A1 in all talks to fill the Big XII’s 10th spot before Oklahoma got cold feet. BYU is an immediate plus in football and a long-term goldmine; the Church of LDS and BYU will be in the coming century what the Catholic church and Notre Dame was to the last. Get in on the ground-floor, ACC, and you’ll have a truly national school in the fold.
Less memorable than Sam Okey's Hawkeye career.
by Kyle McCann't on Sep 13, 2011 2:52 PM EDT up reply actions
If we are talking about landing independents, Notre Dame could be an option. Especially if they see Texas get to keep its exclusive TV rights contract. Notre Dame obviously fits the academic profile and may get cold feet with the instability of the Big East wrt its Olympic sports.
You may say that Notre Dame is just waiting out the Big Ten, but nothing from the Irish’s past history indicates they really want to become a member of the conference barring, of course, 16-team superconference armaggedon.
Editor, BC Interruption
I think Notre Dame has made it clear that it's not the Big Ten Conference they don't want a part of.
It’s any conference. There isn’t a single league out there with the revenue model that the Big Ten holds. And that’s to say nothing of the academic funding that comes with that membership. Notre Dame seems destined to end up like Eddard Stark; holding fast to its ideals even as it loses its head (sorry for the nerd reference).
Less memorable than Sam Okey's Hawkeye career.
by Kyle McCann't on Sep 13, 2011 3:06 PM EDT up reply actions
But like I said, I think if Notre Dame sees Texas get a sweetheart deal, keeping its third tier TV rights, they could be convinced. As an academic institution, ND seemingly has more in common with BC, Duke, Miami, Wake and Virginia and North Carolina than they do with over half of the Big Ten.
Editor, BC Interruption
I would agree that from a structure standpoint
ND has more in common with Wake, Duke, Miami and BC (I think UVA and UNC are closer to the B1G model than you give them credit for), but there’s also a historical bond with the B1G that’s hard to replace. They’ve played Michigan State and Purdue forever and have a newer (only since the early 80’s) series with Michigan that makes up for its short history with, well, I trust everyone’s seen this weekend’s highlights.
If Notre Dame were to join the ACC they’d doubtlessly keep USC on the schedule. After that, there’s no way from a competitive standpoint that they’d keep those three, or even one, of their B1G rivals on their slate. Notre Dame has made it clear that their heritage is incredibly important; the thing they hate admitting is that the B1G is a huge part of that heritage.
Less memorable than Sam Okey's Hawkeye career.
by Kyle McCann't on Sep 13, 2011 3:19 PM EDT up reply actions
You can add one or more service academies to the above list. Same, probably for Stanford.
The thing is, if we are really headed towards the 16-team super conference era — I admit, I still remain skeptical, though OU is doing its best to convince me otherwise — super conferences hurt independents when it comes to non-conference scheduling.
The B1G is moving to a 9-game conference sched. The Pac-12 is already there. I’d imagine the SEC and ACC (with expansion) will also move to 9-games. This makes it harder and harder for Notre Dame to schedule USC, Stanford, Michigan, Michigan State, Purdue, etc. etc. in a year.
I agree that Notre Dame cherishes its history, but realignment could threaten future non-conference series with some of the Irish’s more traditional opponents.
Editor, BC Interruption
Also, call me naive, but I don’t think it’s a coincidence that Notre Dame plays three ACC programs this year in Maryland, Wake Forest and Boston College … and just two Big East programs (Pitt and USF).
Next season, ND plays three ACC schools — Miami, BC and Wake Forest — and just one Big East program (Pitt).
Part of me feels like this is Notre Dame striking out, moving away from scheduling 3 Big East schools a year and renewing ties with the conference as a lever against having to join the Big Ten.
I don’t know, just a feeling.
Editor, BC Interruption
Interesting thought.
Although if BYU ends up in the Pac-?, they’ll also be playing three schools from that conference. I think what’s most apparent is that Notre Dame finds playing a national schedule vital to their identity and joining any league would put that in harm’s way.
Their move away from the Big East is likely an acknowledgment that they don’t have anything to gain in that region (as they’re already the most-watched team in that footprint). Their avoiding the SEC points to the opposite; as a largely un-Catholic region, the South offers little to the Irish.
Less memorable than Sam Okey's Hawkeye career.
by Kyle McCann't on Sep 13, 2011 3:41 PM EDT up reply actions
Agreed. Seems like the Irish’s future scheduling philosophy is comprised of 1/4 ACC, 1/4 Pac-12, 1/4 Big Ten and 1/4 independents. Obviously, they want to keep playing all these schools, but if the dominoes fall in a way that’s not favorable to the Irish, I could see them joining either the B1G or the ACC.
There’s a reason why BYU has stated they don’t want to be the only BCS-like independent left standing and are petrified of the day when Notre Dame leaves them hanging as the lone independent. Makes scheduling that much more difficult.
Editor, BC Interruption
ND plays so many ACC schools because
they are willing to schedule games mid season. They play three Pac12 schools in ’13, ’14 and ’17, along with ’06, ’07, ’08 and four in ’09. Happens.
by ev on Sep 13, 2011 4:51 PM EDT up reply actions
Texas Tech to ACC?
Do you realize how far away Lubbock is? Sorry, but Texas Tech should find a way into the Mountain West. Adding the Red Raiders to that group would strengthen that conference, especially if TCU could change its mind about going to the Big East.
by Lone-Star-Hokie on Sep 16, 2011 7:12 PM EDT up reply actions
I think TCU should change its mind, but I don’t really think it has a choice at this point. These schools desperately want access to the BCS, so if that means that Fort Worth is considered “East,” then so be it.
It’s not like there’s another BCS conference landing spot for the Frogs, especially if the Big 12 disintegrates.
TCU’s only options were for the MWC to get a BCS auto-bid or to join a conference that has one.
Editor, BC Interruption
Love the idea of Texas in Alumni
which would be the first time since our 1976 drubbing of #1 Texas, I think. But what would be in it for the ACC if Texas keeps the LHN? The ACC has to get some slice of that pie, right?
My guess is Texas would make some sort of concession to the rest of the conference in order to keep the LHN.
Editor, BC Interruption
I don't know how that would work.
The ACC’s deal is with ESPN, correct? The LHN is ESPN but for Texas alone. You could get in some tricky legal territory with a network trying to renegotiate with itself and outside parties.
Less memorable than Sam Okey's Hawkeye career.
by Kyle McCann't on Sep 13, 2011 2:38 PM EDT up reply actions
I didn’t completely make up the concession part, I swear. Definitely read that somewhere and looking for a link.
That said, it’s been reported a few times that the ACC would allow Texas to keep the LHN.
Editor, BC Interruption
No, I read it, too.
But it was (I believe) Chip Brown from Orange Bloods, who essentially leaks whatever UT wants him to. In this scenario UT is operating form a position of strength. If they were forced to give up the LHN or share it the ACC wouldn’t even be in the conversation as they’d be headed west with the Oklahomas to join the Pac-whatever.
Less memorable than Sam Okey's Hawkeye career.
by Kyle McCann't on Sep 13, 2011 3:08 PM EDT up reply actions
OB may have reported the concessions part. I think you are right. However, multiple outlets including the WWL have reported that the ACC would be willing to let Texas keep the LHN.
Editor, BC Interruption
ESPN as the new NCAA.
I have to wonder how much ESPN is involved in shaping this discussion. After the last round of expansion it’s become clear that ESPN considers themselves every bit as important and entitled as any of the players in this play.
Less memorable than Sam Okey's Hawkeye career.
by Kyle McCann't on Sep 13, 2011 3:21 PM EDT up reply actions
Agreed. But ESPN also has a vested interest in keeping the Big 12 together as they already have a media rights deal with the conference. The death of the Big 12 hurts the WWL given the decrease in inventory, and the hit to programming in the Central Time Zone.
Editor, BC Interruption
But that was due to an uncontrollable factor
namely, Texas A&M acting “irrationally”, or rather, as a person instead of an institution. When they left in a huff everything about their old plan blew up.
Less memorable than Sam Okey's Hawkeye career.
by Kyle McCann't on Sep 13, 2011 3:25 PM EDT up reply actions
Well, ESPN and the Big 12 could have stuck it out if they had lured an Arkansas or BYU back into the fold, but sounds like the Razorbacks and Sooners both balked, respectively.
Editor, BC Interruption
"Concession" could look something like this:
LHN gets first crack at UT home games after ABC/ESPN Empire. UT keeps all LHN revenue. Ditto basketball. BTW – UT baseball and soccer would also be decent properties for LHN in the ACC…
Raycom gets first crack at UT road games after ABC/ESPN Empire
Raycom/ESPN ACC schedules improve with increase of UT games. They make more money.
ACC Championship game makes a crapload more money, continues to be split equally.
ACC Basketball tournament makes even more money, and school donations increase at schools where this drives ACC tournament ticket allocations.
ACC bowl tie-ins improve and everybody in conference continues to share bowl revenues equally.
All ACC schools make more money when UT comes to visit them.
UT doesn't "do concessions"...period
That’s why the implosion of the Big XII is happening in the first place…they also don’t do sharing, the reason the petulant Aggies (who are all about “tradition” until it comes to their inferiority complex WRT to UT comes into play) are looking to move to the SEC.
As attractive as is might seem to have a UT in the ACC, I only caution “buyer beware”.
I say this as a Red Raider alum from the old SWC era.
Now that’s all out of the way, if the Big XII crumbles (which looks more and more likely), I like the proposed pods and the ACC would be getting some very exciting and quirky football with the Red Raiders, a major NCAA tradition in UT and some seriously fertile recruiting ground in the state of Texas.
Fight, Raiders Fight!
This. On all counts.
Less memorable than Sam Okey's Hawkeye career.
by Kyle McCann't on Sep 13, 2011 3:21 PM EDT up reply actions
I agree, but I don’t think even Swofford is foolish enough to say no to Texas.
Editor, BC Interruption
I thought that was the reason Texas wanted the ACC
so they wouldn’t have to make concessions?
by ev on Sep 13, 2011 4:53 PM EDT up reply actions
I want the ACC to be ballsy and pry Penn State Loose
Joe Pa and the AD up there have said many times that they do not enjoy playing games in other time zones and have had issues with BIG 10 scheduling in their olympic sports for years. Think of snagging Penn State and Syracuse to the conference. They would finally have natural, close to home, old school rivals again, and maybe could you know, help boost the conference.
Pipe dream, but so is this whole Texas to the ACC. Everyone should know by now that the only reason TA&M is getting into the SEC is because the SEC is patiently waiting to get Texas into the fold too.
Don't give up, don't ever give up ~ Jim Valvano
Texas to the SEC seems like a nonstarter. The Longhorns scoff at SEC’s academics.
Editor, BC Interruption
What about Vandy then?
Vandy in the SEC seems like an odd-duck fit. What if, when/if the Big 12 implodes, Vandy was able to come to the ACC with Texas, Texas Tech and Syracuse and the SEC picked up, say, Mizzou AND Kansas (or something like)?
I admit, I’ve thought through none of the logistics, I’ve just wondered why Vandy is in a conference that doesn’t care about academics when in and of itself it’s a good school.
I love the idea of Vanderbilt joining the conference, but it doesn’t seem like anything is going to jar an SEC or B1G school loose from its current conference.
Editor, BC Interruption
Vandy would be a terrific fit for the ACC
but, as you’ve correctly pointed out, the three conferences that aren’t losing members anytime soon are the Pac-12, B1G and SEC.
Less memorable than Sam Okey's Hawkeye career.
by Kyle McCann't on Sep 13, 2011 3:11 PM EDT up reply actions
Unless, of course, the Pac-? decides to boot Oregon State and replaces with Sacramento State.
Editor, BC Interruption
by Brian Favat on Sep 13, 2011 3:13 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Well played.
Using that model, they would have had to have taken five MWC schools a few years back.
Less memorable than Sam Okey's Hawkeye career.
by Kyle McCann't on Sep 13, 2011 3:22 PM EDT up reply actions
can we throw fish back into the water?
can we throw Clemson to the SEC? I’d like to dump them. Maye trade Clemson for Vandy (if ACC is getitng Texas)
I don't think the SEC wants them.
Maybe you could dump Clemson into the Atlantic…but then Poseidon would likely get tired of them pretty quickly.
Less memorable than Sam Okey's Hawkeye career.
by Kyle McCann't on Sep 13, 2011 3:10 PM EDT up reply actions
I agree
I don’t think the SEC has any interest in Clemson. The Clemson-to-SEC rumors always seem to stem from unhappy Clemson fans rather than any reputable news outlets.
Editor, BC Interruption
The only one of the "gentleman's agreement" schools
mentioned so much in SEC expansion talk that would have a prayer of inclusion is Florida State, simply by virtue of having such a strong brand name and a large enough state to split.
Less memorable than Sam Okey's Hawkeye career.
by Kyle McCann't on Sep 13, 2011 3:14 PM EDT up reply actions
I actually think Louisville has a decent shot too, simply because Kentucky likely doesn’t have the pull to block a move. UK might actually be in favor of this because the SEC moving to 14 likely means one more conference game (and one less non-conference game) and the possible end of the UK-Louisville series.
Editor, BC Interruption
I would agree with the lack of objection angle
but can’t see Louisville as all that desirable to a conference who, with few exceptions, can get whatever they want.
Less memorable than Sam Okey's Hawkeye career.
by Kyle McCann't on Sep 13, 2011 3:23 PM EDT up reply actions
Where are you getting this "time zone" stuff from?
PSU has one divisional opponent from outside of the Eastern time zone and has the possibility of playing two more (the Michigans) in cross-divisional play. Not only are they fully entrenched in the Big Ten (it’s been 20 years now), they’ve seen other sports grow; make no mistake, it wasn’t a coincidence that PSU jumped to D1 hockey just as the Big Ten was forming their own league (which will be able to televise said games). The Big Ten is airtight, nobody’s leaving on their own free will.
And everyone knows by now? I don’t think Texas knows this. There’s a reason you never hear Texas to the SEC rumored: they would never go.
Less memorable than Sam Okey's Hawkeye career.
by Kyle McCann't on Sep 13, 2011 2:47 PM EDT up reply actions
Penn State
I know its a pipe dream, but I too would love it if the ACC got really aggressive and tried to get Penn State, or at least made an attempt.
Acting first
Provides an advantage against the Big East, but not B1G. BE has no leverage to poach back, but B1G’s money and prestige could easily grab ACC teams if it chose to do so. No point poking the bear.
Have you heard? The Big East is overrated. And doesn't deserve a BCS bid. And is too bloated in basketball.
by JohnCassillo on Sep 13, 2011 9:18 PM EDT via iPhone app up reply actions
There are serious problems with this of course
Problem #1: I believe the ACC would not take Texas Tech, even to get Texas. TCU maybe. But not Texas Tech. Also no Houston. Maaaybe Baylor? Texas is a good fit in the ACC actually (as good as in Pac-10/12/14/16), but other schools around UT aren’t.
Problem #2: Duke and UNC were dragged kicking and screaming into expansion in the first place, and I can’t see them being any more excited about this further dilution of their power, though at least UT has a good hoops team.
Problem #3: Who else do you add? I think you’d have to assume, as Brian has done, that Syracuse is one of the adds. ‘Cuse can probably also get the votes if anyone can. Who else out there can do that? I am assuming UNC and Duke vote no against everyone to try and kill expansion. Not sure what Wake or UNC would do, but will assume at least one supports expansion or this doesn’t get off the ground anyway (probably Wake, as they’re not driving the NC bus anyway). Do you get another Texas school to keep UT company? See above on that problem. UConn? I’m guessing BC votes no on that. Pitt might work.
All of that said though, I would be S-H-O-C-K-E-D if this isn’t just a leak from UT to try and increase leverage with the Pac-12. Though I do think UT is a good fit culturally and academically in the ACC, and I’d love an ACC expansion including UT, TCU, Cuse and Pitt from a BC fan perspective.
It may very well be a leak, but I do believe the AA-S when they said that Texas wouldn’t be happy in a Pac-16 that split the conference along old conference lines — the Pac-8 and the old Big 12 plus the Arizonas and Utah.
Obviously it’s a no-brainer that Texas wants to guarantee a trip to southern California every year, which the above alignment isn’t conducive to.
Editor, BC Interruption
I think West Virginia is in play, as we’ve discussed in the past.
Strong football and basketball program, plus a rabid (to a fault) fan base make me think a super majority of the current conference would be willing to look past any academic red flags.
Editor, BC Interruption
They'd be a great get for the ACC
but if there’s any school holding out for an SEC invite it’s them.
Less memorable than Sam Okey's Hawkeye career.
by Kyle McCann't on Sep 13, 2011 3:14 PM EDT up reply actions
Holding out, sure. But ...
Oliver Luck isn’t a dope. If he suspects the SEC will only add Missouri to get to 14, I’m sure West Virginia would be willing to listen to the ACC. Especially if any ACC expansion includes Texas.
I think Luck and West Virginia are really looking to get out of the Big East if the dominoes continue to fall.
Editor, BC Interruption
The weird thing about the Big East
is that they’re weirdly stable (for now) in the sense that most of their pieces aren’t that desirable. Since it’s been hashed out a million times over the last year I won’t bore you with why current BE members are unlikely to land in the B1G (short version: Penn State and Nebraska are the last two additions to that league. That’s the standard). The SEC is obviously not fishing up there which leaves only the ACC. In fact, if the Big East is proactive and swoops in to pick up the Kansas schools and one other (probably Mizzou), they’ll have a fascinating new conference model:
They would finally be able to break up their massive basketball league into two 10-team “divisions” comprised of older and newer members with the two sides only meeting in the conference tourney a la NL & AL (once upon a time).
Less memorable than Sam Okey's Hawkeye career.
by Kyle McCann't on Sep 13, 2011 3:34 PM EDT up reply actions
Fun to build the mega Big East ...
Old Guard: Pittsburgh, Notre Dame, Syracuse, St. John’s, West Virginia, Georgetown, Connecticut, Villanova, Seton Hall, Rutgers, Providence
New Guard: Louisville, Cincinnati, Marquette, South Florida, DePaul, Kansas, Kansas State, Missouri, TCU
Still, a conference like this would be built on the fundamental principle that will be the demise of the Big 12: revenue inequality.
One of the old guard Big East schools would probably be pretty pissed that they’d be moved over to the New Guard division. Not sure who that would be exactly … can’t split WVU-Pitt, Syracuse-Georgetown, St. John’s-Seton Hall, etc. Plus I’m sure a school like Villanova will be none too pleased that their possible move to Division I-A football was foiled by Texas. Sowing the seeds of dissension.
Editor, BC Interruption
Words rarely read on the internet:
“Important SJU rivalry”
Less memorable than Sam Okey's Hawkeye career.
by Kyle McCann't on Sep 13, 2011 5:11 PM EDT up reply actions
"St. John's Heads To LOCAL RIVAL Seton Hall For BIG EAST Series"
http://www.redstormsports.com/sports/m-basebl/spec-rel/040711aaa.html
Err … my point stands that you have one too many Old Guard programs, and you’d have to move one to the New Big East. Which one?
Editor, BC Interruption
I grew up cheering for Lou Carnesecca's Red Men
and remember the likes of Mullin & Wennington playing hotly contested games against ‘Cuse and Seton Hall at the Garden. I’m just saying that in the pantheon of college rivalries, SJU/SH doesn’t resonate outside of that tiny corner of the world. Not to say it isn’t storied and important, just not something you hear across a national landscape.
If their had to be a “sacrifice” I’d go off of “newer” arrivals like Notre Dame, Rutgers or West Virginia.
Less memorable than Sam Okey's Hawkeye career.
by Kyle McCann't on Sep 14, 2011 4:44 PM EDT up reply actions
Probably Rutgers.
Then again, I think if the Big East does move to 20, Notre Dame finds somewhere else to put its Olympic sports. ACC?
Editor, BC Interruption
Honestly ...
The Big East would be better off giving the boot to the basketball only members, solving the football/basketball split and moving to an equal revenue distribution model.
A hoops only conference of:
Notre Dame, St. John’s, Georgetown, Villanova, Seton Hall, Providence, Marquette and DePaul
is a nice core for a hoops conference. Think: the WCC of the East.
Notre Dame can join this conference for all other sports in a BYU-WCC-esque relationship and the conference would be free to scoop on strong East coast hoops-only schools like Xavier, Saint Joseph’s (once upon a time), Richmond and Dayton to move to a 12-team power hoops conference. Games will be broadcast on Catholic TV.
Football moves to a 12-program league that is basically C-USA on roids:
Old Guard Division: Pittsburgh, West Virginia, Syracuse, Connecticut, Rutgers, Cincinnati (moved over)
New Guard Division: Louisville, South Florida, Kansas, Kansas State, TCU, Baylor OR Iowa State
Championship Game to be played in the Meadowlands to a crowd of hundreds.
Editor, BC Interruption
Swap USF and Cinci
Louisville/Cinci is a rivalry that’s persisted through several conferences, and it makes for a cleaner East/West split that way. Also not sure how a conference with 4 of 12 members that were ever in CUSA (and two only very briefly; TCU was in the SWC for most of its existence, and USF didn’t have FBS football for very long before leaving CUSA) makes CUSA on steroids.
And forget what our idiot commish is saying about a hypothetical BE championship game at the Meadowlands; any football championship game will be played at the highest seed’s home stadium. There’s no Atlanta or Indianapolis (or even a Charlotte) in this conference; NYC would be like playing the Pac 12 championship in LA (which you’ll note, they aren’t doing). SU and UConn and Rutgers would like it (and WVU and Pitt wouldn’t mind much), but the other 7 schools would hate the idea.
The PAC will scrap the home field championship game as soon as USC, UCLA, Oklahoma or Texas get screwed by the unbalanced schedule. It’s a law, like water or dinosaurs.
Editor, BC Interruption
I don’t know … UConn — tiny football stadium in East Hartford, little to no football history to speak of, a basketball program built on a cheater. Doesn’t add up. Would much rather have West Virginia, honestly.
Editor, BC Interruption
I hate you for making me do this
CT population is double WV’s and growing faster.
CT is 58th in USNWR rankings, way higher than WVU.
If you have Cuse as well, combo of BC, CT, UConn (and maybe MD too) gives a decent density in the Northeast. WV adds no accretive value other than fans who travel.
CT is much easier to get to than WV for road trips in all sports.
The counter
WVU has …
+ A fan base that travels (read: won’t lose $3m plus on a trip to the Fiesta Bowl) …
+ One that averaged 56k per game last year for football, best in the Big East (UConn finished second to last with 38k, ahead of only Cincinnati)
+ Paired with Pittsburgh, a top 25 TV market
+ 20k more seats at their football stadium (can you imagine UT wanting to play at The Rent?)
+ 4k more seats in a basketball arena that isn’t a hole like Gampel
+ Infinitely more upside in hoops once we are blessed with the post-Calhoun era
+ Arguably opens up recruiting grounds in West Virginia, Pennsylvania and parts of Ohio
+ A marginally higher student enrollment
+ Isn’t located in Storrs, Connecticut
I feel dirty inside.
Editor, BC Interruption
Does WVU paired with Pitt give you any more of the Pittsburgh TV market than just Pitt?
The Rent seats 8K more than Wake, 6K more than Duke. Not ideal, but no out of place in conference.
WVU basketball arena may be 4K larger, but 2010-2011 average attendance: UConn 11,569; WVU 11,469
UConn may be in Storrs, but it isn’t located in Morgantown, WV. Nearly identical poverty rates and near-poverty rates between the two, but they haven’t had to pass a felony couch-burning rule in Storrs.
…and I am officially done. I can’t take any more of this. I just hope neither is on the short list.
Average attendance off by 100? Splitting hairs here, CSOM_97.
Don’t get me wrong. I will hate if either is brought into the fold. I think this is a mere difference in when we went to school. UConn seems more annoying than ever, while any couch-burning animus seems to have gotten better with time.
Editor, BC Interruption
OK, good game guys, handshakes all around.
I’ve gotta get to work.
Less memorable than Sam Okey's Hawkeye career.
I'd love to see UCF in the ACC but don't see that happening
I think a realistic addition would be UT, TT, KU, and KSU. Missouri could take the place of KSU or TT but I see them joining either the SEC or BIG10. 4 conferences would be:
Southwest: Texas, TExas Tech, Kansas, Kansas State
Southeast: Florida Sate, Miami, Georgia Tech, Clemson
Carolina: North Carolina, Duke, N.C. State, Wake Forest
Northeast: Virginia, Virginia Tech, Boston College, Maryland
This seems like the simplest and most reasonable solution. Not sure if that makes it the most likely or least likely.
I would be curious if they would implement a 4team playoff for conference champion
d-wade=d-ouche
by captainamerica* on Sep 13, 2011 3:44 PM EDT reply actions
I think you mean USF, not UCF
UCF started as technician school to train mechanics for NASA. They have grown beyond that, but still not a bona fide national university. No way they get into ACC, even though they have a nice football program now. Maybe UCF as a BE replacement school
USF seems to be academically equal to other school in the conversation, such as WVU and L’Ville. Granted none of these schools are academically all that great,
UCF
While they’re not a “bonafide national university,” can we really say USF is either? UCF has the largest enrollment in the country (56,000) and even if half of them are commuters, it’s still a huge number, and it’s still growing. If you’re choosing four new teams for the ACC though, I think the other seven current Big East members are preferred over USF, and definitely over UCF. TCU would probably be a better investment than the Knights, too (competing in-conference vs. FSU, Miami & USF would prove daunting from a recruiting and marketing standpoint).
Have you heard? The Big East is overrated. And doesn't deserve a BCS bid. And is too bloated in basketball.
by JohnCassillo on Sep 13, 2011 8:18 PM EDT up reply actions
reallignment
ACC will be first to go to 16 after Oklahoma and Ok State go to Pac-12 to make it Pac 14
ACC
North- Boston College, Maryland, Virginia, Vir. Tech
South- Florida St., Miami, Georgia Tech, Clemson
East- Duke, NC State, North Car., Wake Forest
West- Texas, Texas Tech, Baylor, Missouri
SEC will hope Missouri (wants Big 10 will settle ACC), NC Sate(Stay Acc), Florida St (maybe)or West Virginia (Maybe) will want to be 14th school.
Big East will pick up the rest of Big 12 schools because of BBall and it will get them to 12 football and 20 basketball it will look like this:
East- Pittsburg, Rutgers, Syracuse, Connecticut, West Virginia, USF
West- Kansas, K State, Iowa St, TCU, Cincinnati, Louisville,
Big 10 will stay at 12 knowing they can get Missouri and Norte Dame later
well
I am not buying this, but those “pods” make all the sense in the world. That is a really tough pod in the South (not that Miami is in a position to complain about anything these days).
I don’t buy Baylor to the ACC, and I also don’t buy Missouri (who I think is on the short list for SEC and would be short list for the Big Ten if it decided to make a move).
Why are we assuming that anyone other than Texas would join the new look ACC should OU and OSU join the PAC-12? The only schools left in the Big 12 to choose from would be TT, Baylor, Iowa State, Mizzou, Kansas and Kansas State. No way Iowa State, Bayor, Kansas or KSU join the ACC, which leaves Mizzou or TT. Neither really seems like an ACC type school. Seems more likely that the ACC would re-raid the Big East to go to 14 or perhaps just stay pat at 13.
Are Texas Tech or Mizzou really greater than Syracuse, PITT, or UCONN?
by chicagofire1871 on Sep 13, 2011 7:29 PM EDT reply actions
Appeasing Lord Bevo
While I agree Texas Tech makes little sense in the ACC, if you believe the report, Texas wants a partner. And you do what you can to appease Lord Bevo.
Editor, BC Interruption
Except if Texas is leaving, there is no need to appease them
Now you would follow if it’s your best offer, but not to make Texas happy. Nothing in it for you anymore.
by ev on Sep 13, 2011 7:54 PM EDT up reply actions
Like I said, if you believe the report, Texas isn’t coming to the ACC alone. If Texas Tech is part of the deal, then you take a flyer on the Red Raiders.
And while we are at it, let’s corner the Tech market by also inviting Cal Tech, MIT and UCF (originally Florida Tech, dontchaknow).
Editor, BC Interruption
Sorry, but I have to stick up for my school here
— The first is the well-being of its student-athletes. The Pac-12 is two time zones away from Austin and could make life difficult for student-athletes traveling back and forth from Austin to Pullman, Washington. The ACC may be seen as a more favorable option since all member schools are just one time zone away. Advantage: ACC.
Under two 8-team divisions, Texas would have to travel to Wazzu at most once every 5-6 years.
Also:
Austin → Pullman: 1,539 miles
Austin → Syracuse: 1,479 miles
Also, time zones? Creative scheduling can balance it out. There’s plenty of time on Saturday for everyone to be happy.
Writer: CougCenter Twitterer: @GradyClapp
Time Zones
I feel like everyone’s going off on time zones, specifically in regards to non-revenue sports (this was a huge talking point when TCU agreed to join the Big East in November).
While not ideal, any flight these guys take in the U.S. probably isn’t equaling more than six hours (max, and only coast-to-coast). Also, for non-revenue sports, they don’t have the same conference scheduling demands as football and basketball. So, if Texas were to join the ACC, they would never have to play BC and could just compete against regional competition (which there’s plenty of in Texas).
Have you heard? The Big East is overrated. And doesn't deserve a BCS bid. And is too bloated in basketball.
by JohnCassillo on Sep 13, 2011 8:11 PM EDT up reply actions
Time Zones
Are important when it comes to television inventory. Which is why you may see a four team ACC pod comprised entirely of old Big 12 teams, as it sweetens the deal when it comes to renegotiating the conference’s TV rights deal.
Editor, BC Interruption
Why is Baylor not a good fit for the ACC?
A borderline tier I school with a football program headed in the right direction under Art Briles (former UH coach who put Kevin Kolb and a few others into the NFL) and what sounds like will be breaking ground on a new on campus football stadium as soon as the sale of the Astros goes through. Plus there is basketball, where Baylor should be a preseason Top 12 team and is bringing in another one of the best recruits in the country in Isiah Austin.
I understand why Baylor isn’t a fit for the Pac12 (religion), but it seems to me that it fits better with the ACC than any other conference.
"I’d love to walk in and hug everybody every day, but that’s not critical to us winning." - Jon Daniels
Because we simply look down on any school that threatens litigation wrt conference realignment expansion.
Cough, UConn, cough.
Editor, BC Interruption
Chip Brown is reporting the UT to ACC thing is gaining steam
http://texas.rivals.com/content.asp?CID=1264923
He also says ’Don’t rule out Kansas as a possible ACC target’.
Of course, I have a few dogs in this fight (KU undergrad, Duke Master’s), but I’d love to see that basketball environment.
Forgot to mention
KU’s current Chancellor? Bernadette Gray-Little. The former #2 at UNC.
Academic + Athletic Fits
If you are going to raid the Big 12 after Texas, and the ACC does pride itself in Academics throw out the following: Baylor, Texas Tech, Kansas State. None are AAU members and Baylor is quite terrible. Tech is getting better and has a lot of funding coming from the state but are still sub par and would be the worst academic institution in the ACC by far. Iowa State, KU and Missouri are all AAU members though. ISU however, brings nothing else to the table. No viewership (Iowa Hawkeyes have all of Iowa), no power programs, nothing.
Kansas and Missouri are both AAU members (and have been for over 100 years). Missouri brings a regularly ranked football team and a decent, middle of the road basketball team to the conference. Kansas adds a third blue blood to the conference in basketball. Missouri guarantees St. Louis market + about 20% of Kansas City. Kansas brings the rest of Kansas City and Wichita. Neither of those markets are all that large but both are HUGE college viewing markets, which is the demographic of it.
Missouri does not want to got o the SEC unless their only other option is the Big East. They want to keep their Texas recruiting pipeline in tact if they can. If the B1G offers Missouri though, they will bolt for there first as that is their most preferred destination.
So if you assume you got KU/MU with Texas and throw in Tech as an outlier that Texas wont go without them you have this:
North- Boston College, Maryland, Virginia, Vir. Tech
South- Florida St., Miami, Georgia Tech, Clemson
East- Duke, NC State, North Car., Wake Forest
West- Texas, Texas Tech, Kansas, Missouri
Its regionally based, the teams in those regions are familiar with one another and most culturally the same and it reduces travel.
Oh and btw
For those asking what benefit Texas brings if they bring their LHN with them? Money. Lots and lots of money. The ACC’s new deal with the above mentioned teams would garner each school somewhere around 20 million a piece from the 1st and 2nd tier rights. LHN would only get 3rd tier rights in football (so FSU/UT would never be on there) and basketball (so UT/Duke, UT/UNC, UT/KU would never be on there.
Now I dont know what kind of TV deal the ACC currently has but Im betting its not 20 million per school.
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