ACC Records That Should Not Be Taken Seriously, According To The Florida Times-Union
by Brian Favat on Nov 18, 2011 12:01 PM EST
in Boston College Football
Email
PrintMuch has been made this weekend's linebacker matchup between Boston College's Luke Kuechly and Notre Dame's Manti Te'o. The spotlight on Kuechly has been further magnified by the fact that #40 stands just 15 tackles away from breaking the school's all-time record (524, Stephen Boyd) and six tackles short of the ACC record held by Clemson's Bubba Brown.
This week the Florida Times-Union's Garry Smits wrote his best, poorly constructed argument attempting to at least partially discredit Kuechly's assault on the ACC's record book.
Among the highlights: BC is just 15-17 during Kuechly's 32-game streak of double-digit tackles and just 5-10 when Kuechly records 15+ (because linebackers have a significant influence on the outcome of games). Smits also argues that Kuechly is on the field more than his peers (which is true) and that just three of the top 10 tacklers in ACC history were on an ACC Championship team (again, winning percentage ... and linebacker play? Strongly correlated, obvi).
Finally, Smits abandons any and all logic with this doozy of a reason why you shouldn't take Kuechly's eventual ACC career record for total tackles seriously.
"Here's another clue about how tackles should not be taken very seriously as a statistic in evaluating a player or a defense: The list of the ACC's top-20 in career tackles and top-20 in single-season tackles does not include a single player from Florida State, Miami or Virginia Tech."
Oh, right. I didn't realize that if a Seminole, a Hurricane or a Hokie doesn't rank in the top-20 of a conference statistical category that IT SHOULDN'T BE TAKEN SERIOUSLY. Nevermind the fact that Virginia Tech and Miami have been in the conference for all of eight seasons.
After the jump, I've compiled a similar list of individual ACC career records that totally shouldn't count, considering a Florida State, Miami or Virginia Tech player doesn't rank among the conference's all-time greats. PLEASE IGNORE THESE RECORDS. THEY ARE NOT TO BE TAKEN SERIOUSLY. Much like Garry Smits.
TOTAL PLAYS
1. Philip Rivers, NC State (00-03) ..............1,962
2. Thaddeus Lewis, Duke (06-09) ..............1,860
3. Reggie Ball, Georgia Tech (03-06) .........1,858
4. Riley Skinner, Wake Forest (06-09) .......1,636
5. Charlie Whitehurst, Clem. (02-05) .........1,633
6. Spence Fischer, Duke (92-95) ................1,612
7. Shawn Jones, Georgia Tech (89-92) ........1,609
8. Ben Bennett, Duke (80-83) .....................1,582
RUSHING TOUCHDOWNS
1. Ted Brown, NC State (75-78) ......................49
2. James Davis, Clemson (05-08) ....................47
3. Robert Lavette, Georgia Tech (81-84) .........45
4. Rick Badanjek, Maryland (82-85) ...............44
5. Leon Johnson, North Carolina (93-96) ........43
Wali Lundy, Virginia (02-05).......................4
RUSHING ATTEMPTS
1. Robert Lavette, Georgia Tech (81-84) .......914
2. Amos Lawrence, North Carolina (77-80) ......881
3. James McDougald, Wake Forest (76-79) ......880
4. Ted Brown, NC State (75-78) ....................860
5. Chris Barclay, Wake Forest (02-05) ..........84
200 YARD RUSHING GAMES
1. Thomas Jones, Virginia (96-99) ....................6
2. Amos Lawrence, North Carolina (77-80) ......3
Natrone Means, North Carolina (90-92) .......3
Mike Voight, North Carolina (73-76) ............3
Charlie Wysocki, Maryland (78-81) ..............3
PASSES ATTEMPTED
1. Philip Rivers, NC State (2000-03) ........1,710
2. Thaddeus Lewis, Duke (2006-09) .........1,510
3. Ben Bennett, Duke (1980-83) ...............1,375
4. Spence Fischer, Duke (1992-95) ...........1,369
5. Charlie Whitehurst, Clem. (2002-05) ....1,368
6. Reggie Ball, Georgia Tech (2003-06) ....1,363
7. Riley Skinner, Wake Forest (2006-09) ..1,349
8. Matt Ryan, Boston College (2004-07) ..1,347
9. T.J. Yates, North Carolina (2007-10) .....1,277
10. Jamie Barnette, NC State (1996-99) ......1,243
PASSES COMPLETED
1. Philip Rivers, NC State (2000-03) ........1,087
2. Riley Skinner, Wake Forest (2006-09) .....903
3. Thaddeus Lewis, Duke (2006-09) ............877
4. Ben Bennett, Duke (1980-83) ..................820
5. Charlie Whitehurst, Clemson (2002-05) ..817
6. Matt Ryan, Boston College (2004-07) .....807
7. T.J. Yates, North Carolina (2007-10) ........795
8. Spence Fischer, Duke (1992-95) ..............786
9. Matt Schaub, Virginia (2000-03) ..............716
10. Darian Durant, N. Carolina (2001-04) .....701
KICKOFF RETURNS
1. Torrey Smith, Maryland (2008-10) .............123
2. Brandon Tate, UNC (2005-08) ....................109
3. Jabari Marshall, Duke (2005-08) ................107
4. Eric Blount, UNC (1988-91) .........................97
5. T.J. Graham, NC State (2008-**) ..............93
6. Kevin Marion, Wake Forest (2004-07) .........88
7. Marcus Wall, UNC (1992-95) .......................87
Anthony Williams, Wake Forest (1988-91) ..87
9. Chris Douglas, Duke (2000-03) ....................84
Alvis Whitted, NC State (1994-97)...............84
Jeff Smith, Boston College (2006-09) ..........84
12.Troy Slade, Duke (1973-75) .........................83
13.Randy Jones, Duke (1987-90) .......................81
14.Ralph Stringer, NC State (1973-77) ..............78
15.Joe Sroba, Virginia (1974-76) .......................74
C.J. Spiller, Clemson (2006-09) ....................74
250 YARD ALL-PURPOSE GAMES
1. Frank Quayle, Virginia (1966-68) ...................5
2. Torrey Smith, Maryland (2008-10) .............4
3. C.J. Spiller, Clemson (2006-09) ................*3
4. Tiki Barber, Virginia (1993-96) ...................2
Chris Barclay, Wake Forest (2002-05) ........2
Amos Lawrence, North Carolina (1977-80) ..2
Don McCauley, North Carolina (1968-70) ..2
Scottie Montgomery, Duke (1996-99) .........2
Alvin Pearman, Virginia (2001-04) .............2
Brandon Tate, North Carolina (2005-08) ....2
PUNTS ATTEMPTED
1. Brian Morton, Duke (1997-00) ....................282
2. Scott McAlister, North Carolina (1988-91) ..278
3. Russ Henderson, Virginia (1975-78) .........276
4. Jeff Walker, Virginia (1981-83, 85) ...........273
5. Jeff Pierce, Georgia Tech (1978-81) ..........25
INTERCEPTIONS
1. Alphonso Smith, Wake Forest ..........................2005-08 249 11.9 2
2. Dre' Bly, North Carolina ..................................1996-98 198 9.9 20
3. John Talley, Duke .............................................2003-06 395 21.9 18
4. Tom Brown, Maryland. ....................................1960-62 275 16.2 17
Ronnie Burgess, Wake Forest ...........................1981-84 176 10.4 17
A.J. Greene, Wake Forest .................................1985-88 175 10.3 17
Terry Kinard, Clemson .....................................1978-81 147 8.6 17
Keith McMeans, Virginia .................................1987-90 88 5.2 17
9. Lou Angelo, North Carolina .............................1970-72 115 7.2 16
Pat Chester, Virginia .........................................1978-82 296 18.5 16
Willie Clay, Georgia Tech ................................1988-91 264 16.5 16
Rich Searl, Duke ...............................................1969-71 197 12.3 16
Eric Williams, NC State ...................................1978-82 167 10.4 1
OK, OK. Maybe the punting records really don't mean all that much. Point stands.
24 comments
|
0 recs |
Do you like this story?
Comments
Brian, great rant but
if you read the article, it’s pretty obvious that he’s not trying to criticize Luke as a player. In fact he continually praises him as a very good linbeacker. The point he’s trying to make is that 1 player’s tackles record most likely indicates that the defensive unit he plays for isn’t very good, and I tend to agree with him. He hasn’t written anything to discreidt Luke, he’s simply trying to show that there were plenty of other good linebackers who would never appraoch Luke’s numbers due to the defensive unit they played for, and that 1 stat isn’t enough to proclaim anyone as the best linebacker in ACC history or anything like that. Tackles are a rather misleading stat, kind of like wins for a pitcher. Obviously if a pitcher wins 24 games in a year (probably the equivalent of Luke’s tackle numbers) he has to be a great pitcher, but is he better than say, Felix Hernandez from 2010? (sorry for the baseball analogies, it’s what I know)
Respectfully disagree
I do agree that tackles are a misleading stat. However, I completely disagree that these are the reasons why:
1) BC’s overall record or record when Kuechly has 15+ tackles
2) Kuechly has not been on an ACC Championship team
3) A player from Florida State, Miami or Virginia Tech does not rank in the top 20 of the conference all-time
On the first two, again, how good a defender you are generally has next to nothing to do with overall team performance. The third point is simply asinine.
Editor, BC Interruption
On the first and second points, which are related, your overall record directly corelates to how good your defense is, and how many points it allows. While not necessarily dependent on how many offensive plays the opposing team runs, it stands to reason that teams that allow fewer points also allow the opposing offense to to run few plays. This in turn results in fewer opportunities to make a tackle. I don’t know the stats for how many plays opposing offenses have run against BC, but I have a feeling it’s far more than the number run agaisnt some of the conferences top ranked defenses. Additionally, it stands to reason that a number of Luke’s tackles were the result of missed tackles by members of the defensive line or secondary. This wouldn’t be the case on a better team.
In short, BC’s record isn’t the reason why Luke is putting up the numbers he is (I’d argue that that would be the lack of defensive efficiency of the rest of the unit) but it’s another result of the same factor. So in that sense the two are certainly related.
Reason number 3 is related in the same way, in that FSU, VT, and Miami always have some of the top defensive units in the country and therefore it is harder for a player there to put up the type of numbers that Luke is. I’m fairly certain that that is all that’s being said in the article.
A good comparrison
Is Torrey Smith on Maryland. Torrey busted every ACC kickoff return and total yardage record his sophomore year and by his junior year had broken most of the career marks. But in his sophomore year Maryland went 2-10 and was kicked off to more times than almost any other team in ACC history. Torrey’s up on that list above with 4 games with 250 all purpose yards, but in a lot of those games he returned 8 kicks. If he takes each of them back only 20 yards he only needs 90 yards receiving. Same with his TD return numbers. His percentage of returns for TDs was well above average, but it wasn’t record breaking above average. He had as many TDs as he did because he was kicked to so many times. Kind of the same thing with Luke. Doesn’t take away from Torrey as a player and doesn’t take away from Luke as a player, but if Maryland had been good in 2009 or BC was good the past 2 years, it wouldn’t have happened.
Kuechly also leads in tackles-per-play, which seems to negate the assertion that he’s on the field more than other defenders nationally.
tackles per play — Kuchley is still king here is a link http://www.cfbstats.com/2011/leader/national/player/split01/category19/sort01.html
There is no stat for “tackles per play” — it is a calculated figure based on total team defensive plays (and assumes for lack of a more precise metric that the tackler was in on every down), divided by how many tackles the tackler has. This will give you a decent approximation of the tackles per play of the tackler.
Keeks leads the nation in tackles and tackles-per-play, and does so by impressive margins.
Leader tacklers (by school, not name) on a per play basis.
BC (Kuechly) .24
Akron .20
Tulane .18
Tulsa .15
Ball st .14
among BCS schools with leading tacklers, the number of tackles per play by the leading tackler
BC (K-man) .24
Kentucky .17
Wisc .18
Rutgers .18
Duke .16
Nebraska .14
ND (Te’o) .13
(this was a modified repost from the ND blog, onefootdown, who they were semi-dissing K-man (yet semi-praising K-man) as having inflated stats.
Editor, BC Interruption
yeah, that I'll buy
that’s the stat I was asking for. that disproves the argument above, but nothing posted in this thread or the article, prior to that did so. im sure if you showed that to the author of the article he’d have to reneg a bit.
still leaves open the argument that some of Luke’s tackles would be made by other players on better teams but that’s not as major a point as what’s posted above
Kuechly is killing it with tackles this year, but the 2009 and 2010 defenses had a lot more talent and #40 was still killing it.
Editor, BC Interruption
On the first and second points, which are related, your overall record directly corelates to how good your defense is, and how many points it allows.
The strength of your defense / team record, however, has no bearing on an individual achievement.
Reason 3 is still asinine. Virginia Tech and Miami have been in the league 8 years. That’s why there are few Hokies and Hurricanes in the ACC’s record book.
Editor, BC Interruption
“The strength of your defense / team record, however, has no bearing on an individual achievement.”
that’s not true. read the rest of my post below the part you quoted
It has little to no bearing on this particular statistic
LBs don’t play on offense. They (generally) don’t put points on the board.
BC could go 0-12 and that shouldn’t take away from Kuechly’s accomplishment or the fact that he’s a special player.
If team performance and overall record did have a bearing, than Smits shouldn’t be using the fact that a Miami player doesn’t rank in the top 20 for a particular career ACC record as a reason why we shouldn’t take this record seriously. Miami has been terrible since joining the ACC.
Editor, BC Interruption
Number of plays that you are on the field is correlated to the number of opportunities you have to tackle an offensive player. Agreed.
But overall record has nothing to do with this achievement. Two scenarios:
1) Your offense sucks, you run offensive sets that consist of “run-run-pass” and you go 3-and-out more often than not. As a result, your defense is on the field for more than half the game and defensive players have more opportunities to record tackles. (e.g. BC, Kentucky)
2) Your offense is an up-tempo, fast-paced one, scores early and often, and your defense is on the field for more than half the game and defensive players have more opportunities to record tackles. (e.g. Oregon, Oklahoma State)
Editor, BC Interruption
correct he makes good point but a horrible argument
"Don't bite your friends" - DJ Lancerock
by truecolors on Nov 18, 2011 2:56 PM EST via iPhone app up reply actions
If your breaking the acc tackle record in ur junior year u shud be considered one of the best in acc history
by BCeagles1994 on Nov 18, 2011 1:07 PM EST via mobile reply actions
The bad team argument is a bad arguement
if a player has prodigious numbers in that department, doesn’t it mean the other team has the ball for a lot of plays?
This argument is like this: BC’s offense is bad and it often goes 3-and-out. So the defense plays alot and it does not stop teams at 3-and-out either. So the BC defenders get a greater opportunity to makes more tackles than other defenses. Thus, the high number of tackles is a function of Kuechly — a good palyer – getting a greater number of chances to make tackles than a comparably good player on a good team.
Sounds nice, but it is false, particularly the premise that BC’s defense defends more plays that other good teams . As I show, if it were true, you would think Kuchley has a lower “rate” of tackling that other players. ie. more tackles, but more opportunities and thus a relatively lower tackle-per-defensive-play rate than other leading tacklers.
But on tackles per play — Kuchley is still king
here is a link http://www.cfbstats.com/2011/leader/national/player/split01/category19/sort01.html
There is no stat for “tackles per play” — it is a calculated figure based on total team defensive plays (and assumes for lack of a more precise metric that the tackler was in on every down), divided by how many tackles the tackler has. This will give you a decent approximation of the tackles per play of the tackler.
Keeks leads the nation in tackles and tackles-per-play, and does so by impressive margins.
Leader tacklers (by school, not name) on a per play basis.
BC (Kuechly) .24
Akron .20
Tulane .18
Tulsa .15
Ball st .14
among BCS schools with leading tacklers, the number of tackles per play by the leading tackler
BC (K-man) .24
Kentucky .17
Wisc .18
Rutgers .18
Duke .16
Nebraska .14
ND (Te’o) .13
(this was a modified repost from the ND blog, onefootdown, who they were semi-dissing K-man (yet semi-praising K-man) as having inflated stats
by waterwater on Nov 18, 2011 1:32 PM EST reply actions 1 recs
A Seminole shill
This guy’s analysis is all shit. Maybe he should explain it to NFL scouts before they make Kuechly a first round draft pick.
in the guy's defense
he just hasn’t watched Kuechly week-in and week-out and diesn’t appreciate him.. it’s like the old saying about how there are lies, damn lies and then there’s statistics. You can take any stats and when you view them with a southern bias minimize the accomplishments of any BC player. If you actually watch Kuetchly play, alot, you’ll never try to minimize what he’s done.
Don't care about Smits
tbut my concern is that the people who vote for the Butkus award etc. will take a similar view.
Agreed. This shouldn’t have hit the web imo. Very poorly constructed argument.
Editor, BC Interruption
Comments For This Post Are Closed
Secondary Sidebar
User Tools
Related FanPosts on BC Interruption
Related FanShots on BC Interruption
FanPosts
Community blog posts and discussion.
